The Question with no answer, maybe?

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FZRaven
Activist

Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 290
Location: Vermont

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: The Question with no answer, maybe?

So this is something that makes my head hurt when I think of it.

As a race we don't yet truly understand where we came from, let alone where the universe came from. Theory's have been proposed, such as the Big Bang or God. Personally I lean towards The big bang, via way of brane theory. Yet this really does not matter, because that's not my question.

See everything has to come from something, you don't get something from nothing. So we can say at some point there was nothing, and this nothing had to have come from something. But we can't get anyplace because we just end up at nothing. As humans we define nothing as well nothing, but nothing is still something is it not?

So my question is if we assume that there was a "space" that was full of nothing. How did energy come to be? also where did this "space" come from? And what about that which made this "space"? and so on and so forth till your head hurts.

Also please no defaulting to God made it all. I know it's a favorite of religious people to fall back on God has always been and always will be. Or that God is outside of time, yet even if such a thing existed it would still have had to come from something. Even if it is outside of time even the great one would have to have come from something. Also it does not get us as a race any closer to answering these questions, it's the great cop out. I don't want to think about this, I don't understand this, so God is the answer.

Nothing against religious people, it's just not going to help answer these types of questions.

shortyflow
M.I.A.M.I

Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 593
Location: Porter Pot in Brazil

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject:

Not being a dick, but for those that are not religous thats why you are rubbing your head. We do fall back on god but that is our beliefs.

I also believe however there is a scientific explination to many thins including space and energy. They are just so far out there I don't think that we have people that smoke pot in the science department to figure it out. remember weed makes you solve problems in different ways. If we can not explain it with the rocket scientists how about the pot scientist?

FZRaven
Activist

Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 290
Location: Vermont

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject:

shortyflow wrote:

Not being a dick, but for those that are not religous thats why you are rubbing your head. We do fall back on god but that is our beliefs.

Yes, but it's not an explanation, It's a fallback. You can't explain God, even the bible says you can't understand God. So saying God made it really gets us no closer to an explanation. To except a answer without the knowledge to come to that answer yourself is not truly an answer.

shortyflow
M.I.A.M.I

Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 593
Location: Porter Pot in Brazil

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject:

shortyflow wrote:

I also said this however. Even though I have a deep belief in God. I am not going to be the one to say that there is not an explination other than God that can be proved. Like the way I see the Big bang theory. It probabley did happen that way. But I am still the guy that is going to say God still runs my life.

I do belive though that we are never going to be able to solve this question. There is just to many things that need to stay unknown in the universe. Like which came first the chicken or the egg? I belive in the big bang theory so does that make it so I can't believe that there is still a god?

socrateez
Moderator

Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 1374
Location: I'm your next door neighbor

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems
Suggests we might not be able to know everything.
Been lots of thought on this.

This is worth the read and what i would "like" to believe:
I met god the other day...
http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal
Make your head hurt? Wink

socrateez
Moderator

Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 1374
Location: I'm your next door neighbor

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:00 pm Post subject:

I should note for those who actually read the second link, there is one all important question missing from the work. What? Razz

FZRaven
Activist

Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 290
Location: Vermont

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:16 am Post subject:

socrateez wrote:

I should note for those who actually read the second link, there is one all important question missing from the work. What? Razz

Well it seems to me the author is saying that there is one universe, This one. So I can imagine that the God in this piece was the product of an earlier version of this same universe.

Basically they, as I understand this God is a melding of multiple entity's. So the universe is played over and over to add entity's to this entity.

So I would have wanted to ask, How many entity's are you comprised of. How many times has the universe been created. How many universes ago did you evolve to your current state? And how many universes ago was the first time the universe was created, and who created it.

That's the conclusion I come to, I only read over it quickly. I'll have to go back and really look it over.

xlldo
Antiprohibitionist

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 33

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:25 am Post subject:

Maybe because Im stoned I dont quite get this thread. But God, does he smoke dope? Is he pot, in his 'melding of entities'? Maybe he is up there singing with Billy Preston 'Nothing from nothing leaves nothing, but you gotta have something...if you want to be with me'

Is there an implication here that pot ought to be legal so that our theologians and other thinkers-about-God (not necessarily rocket scientists) will come up with alternate theories about the universe?

Brute4291
Mod-er-rater?

Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 637
Location: Zion

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:35 am Post subject:

Well to keep me from thinking the same question as you FZ i am slightly religous, just to put my thoughts at rest i also think that is why alot of people are religious as well.

However I found an explanation that could be just as true as the Big bang, God, or perhaps a Polytheistic religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

see for yourself

socrateez
Moderator

Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 1374
Location: I'm your next door neighbor

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:47 am Post subject:

The Author doesn't address the issue of what happens to us when we die. wink

If the universe is a contained construct, we are part of it and not external to it in any way. Ive pondered the possibility that we are simply sensory apparatus. If that is true than the universe is truly aware of itself. In this sense is the universe alive? Is that our purpose? If so, is our mind a reflection of something greater, asking the same questions? If there is a purpose to "everything" as a whole on a scale untold, would I recognize such "thoughts" as events in the universe?

I believe as a species however, we are like Bacteria in a petri dish. Our "dish" being this planet. I believe we follow the same general pattern of life. The only really important question to me is this: Will it get out of the dish? If the answer is yes, all manner of possibility exist for us. If the answer is no, well what happens to the Bacteria in the dish?
Also as a species we are animals burdened with perception and cognition capable of realizing the infinite beyond, eat, sleep, fuck, and fight.
I am but a finite fragment of the infinite i love to ponder. I don't need any other purpose than the ability to ask Why? I think my purpose is to simply live, as I am technically an animal and largely governed by that fact. As a mind my purpose is simply to ask questions. The universe quite possibly has designed me for such. Wink

FZRaven
Activist

Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 290
Location: Vermont

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:20 am Post subject:

socrateez wrote:

The Author doesn't address the issue of what happens to us when we die. wink

Ah see I never would have thought of that. As far as I'm concerned when we die that's the end, we rot and over time become the basic elements that we are made of. I don't think that our mind lives on, it's a nice thought but I don't see any basis for it.
I'm not afraid of death, but I don't wish for it.

socrateez
Moderator

Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 1374
Location: I'm your next door neighbor

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:32 am Post subject:

Brute4291 wrote:

OMG I forgot about that! Thanx!
Heres a link on his website to the text of the leter he sent to the Kansas School Board:
http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/
Funny stuff! As good a belief as any.

High Man
Super High Man

Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 269
Location: Space

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject:

Me and a couple of my friends saw some sort of UFO activity late night/early morning earlier this week.

Aliens? Stealth Bombers? Space Station Mir? Supernovas? Something else?

Questions with no answers... And it has not been the first time for me either...

Quote:

See everything has to come from something, you don't get something from nothing.

I don't think that is entirely true, since I think anything is possible, which would imply that you can get something from nothing.

Quote:

So we can say at some point there was nothing, and this nothing had to have come from something.

Was it nothing? We don't really know. All knowledge and known scientific laws break down when we start to theorize about pre-big bang.

Quote:

But we can't get anyplace because we just end up at nothing.

Where are we trying to go? I think the real question, which socrateez was touching upon is what happens to consciousness when we (seemingly, apparently) die. I personally don't care about gods and devils and the answer as to why I exist (my parents had sex), I am more concerned with what happens to my mind, dreams, memories, my sight, what do I see, will I see, or think? What happens to perception, how will it change?

Lets just try and stay out of jail wink

Quote:

As humans we define nothing as well nothing, but nothing is still something is it not?

Space is not really an empty vacuum as we once thought, but is indeed filled in some way with stuff. So even the concept of "nothing" is quite vain, but the idea of lack of value or quantity is still there and can exist as an idea in our heads or on paper.

Quote:

So my question is if we assume that there was a "space" that was full of nothing. How did energy come to be?

The total energy of the universe is equal to zero actually! I forget why or how this works, but that is the answer to the question.

Quote:

also where did this "space" come from? And what about that which made this "space"? and so on and so forth till your head hurts.

Well, space, the universe, inflated over time, and is still inflating at an increasing speed if I am correct.

I'm sure Stephen Hawking could tell you where it came from. I would tell you space does not actually exist, it is a figment of your imagination, and that you have not walked or moved anywhere, your perception moves existence around you, your perception does not move around within existence.

Quote:

They are just so far out there I don't think that we have people that smoke pot in the science department to figure it out.

Trust me, you do big grin

Quote:

remember weed makes you solve problems in different ways. If we can not explain it with the rocket scientists how about the pot scientist?

The Weed God did it big grin

socrateez
Moderator

Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 1374
Location: I'm your next door neighbor

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The total energy of the universe is equal to zero actually! I forget why or how this works, but that is the answer to the question.

"In the inflationary theory, matter, antimatter, and photons were produced by the energy of the false vacuum, which was released following the phase transition. All of these particles consist of positive energy. This energy, however, is exactly balanced by the negative gravitational energy of everything pulling on everything else. In other words, the total energy of the universe is zero! It is remarkable that the universe consists of essentially nothing, but (fortunately for us) in positive and negative parts. You can easily see that gravity is associated with negative energy: If you drop a ball from rest (defined to be a state of zero energy), it gains energy of motion (kinetic energy) as it falls. But this gain is exactly balanced by a larger negative gravitational energy as it comes closer to Earth’s center, so the sum of the two energies remains zero."

Physic has become so...Zen big grin

Quote:

Space is not really an empty vacuum as we once thought, but is indeed filled in some way with stuff.

"Space is the boundless extent within which matter is physically extended and objects and events have positions relative to one another[1]. Physical space is often conceived in three linear dimensions , although modern physicists usually consider it, with time, to be part of the boundless four-dimensional continuum known as spacetime."-Wiki.
[/quote]

FZRaven
Activist

Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 290
Location: Vermont

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject:

High Man wrote:

Aliens? Stealth Bombers? Space Station Mir? Supernovas? Something else?

I'm open to the idea of other species out in the universe. If they exist they also could have evolved faster than us, so just might have the means for interstellar travel.

High Man wrote:

I don't think that is entirely true, since I think anything is possible, which would imply that you can get something from nothing.

That's interesting, I made up a saying a while ago. Everything is impossible, so anything is possible.

High Man wrote:

Was it nothing? We don't really know. All knowledge and known scientific laws break down when we start to theorize about pre-big bang.

No we don't know, yet. But as a general understand right now we define it as nothing, because we don't know. The laws break down way be for we get to pre-big bang. We can't even get back to the point of the big bang yet, close but not all the way.

High Man wrote:

Just a personal opinion, from what limited research I've done. The brain is a living organ, when we die it dies, along with what we call consciousness.

High Man wrote:

That stuff is dark energy, what the guys behind the brane theory say keeps our string from colliding with another. But it runs down, it will cease to be at some point. and when that happens we can expect another big bang, at least that's the theory.

High Man wrote:

The total energy of the universe is equal to zero actually! I forget why or how this works, but that is the answer to the question.

Can't comment on this, cause I've seen differing views.

High Man wrote:

Well, space, the universe, inflated over time, and is still inflating at an increasing speed if I am correct.

Well this depends on the theory your looking at, in a cyclic model the universe expands then contracts over and over and over and .....

High Man wrote:

I'm sure Stephen Hawking could tell you where it came from. I would tell you space does not actually exist, it is a figment of your imagination, and that you have not walked or moved anywhere, your perception moves existence around you, your perception does not move around within existence.

I don't think Hawking even has a basic understanding of where it came from, unfortunately.

It's just not something we will know in this lifetime, or for a long time from now.

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